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DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:33 pm

D-Lightning wrote:For once i actually agree with GMJ about Wes ability to play SG, i dont see why not. He reminds me of T-Mac just a big SG


T-Mac had elite court vision and ball handling ability.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby BadKiki » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:35 pm

cpawfan wrote:
You are missing several attributes of an ideal SG. Now, you are painting a nice case of how he can be a shooting specialist on the wing, in which case position doesn't matter, but you don't draft players like that with the 3rd pick and build championship teams


He also moves well without the ball, rebounds, makes a ton of plays on defense...but hey, if you want to compare him to a Daquean Cook type, go for it.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:36 pm

pegs wrote:What are these skills or attributes that he's missing?


Start by comparing and contrasting Michael Redd and Ray Allen
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:37 pm

BadKiki wrote:
He also moves well without the ball, rebounds, makes a ton of plays on defense...but hey, if you want to call him to a Daquean Cook, go for it.


He does not make a ton of plays on defense on wing players. Additionally, he was spending a lot of time at PF, so that impacts rebounding numbers.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby pegs » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:38 pm

cpawfan wrote:
Start by comparing and contrasting Michael Redd and Ray Allen

Redd sucks at defense and is a ballhog. Not attributes of Wes still
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby pegs » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:40 pm

cpawfan wrote:
He does not make a ton of plays on defense on wing players. Additionally, he was spending a lot of time at PF, so that impacts rebounding numbers.

You are mixing up not being capable of with simply not doing it.

SU's lack of shotblockers made it a priority for him to play help defense
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby BadKiki » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:42 pm

cpawfan wrote:
He does not make a ton of plays on defense on wing players. Additionally, he was spending a lot of time at PF, so that impacts rebounding numbers.


Just because someone plays PF does not mean they are going to grab rebounds.

I don't get your stance on his defense, either. How is it fair to condemn someone before they're even given the opportunity to fail (or succeed)? There doesn't appear to be a cogent argument to suggest he won't be capable of guarding NBA small forwards.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:44 pm

pegs wrote:Redd sucks at defense and is a ballhog. Not attributes of Wes still


There are many more differences between the two.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby D-Lightning » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:45 pm

a very nice video of Wes Johnson working out for the Draft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4X5jFMOrzA

He talks about his game and how he grew up a Scottie Pippen fan
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:48 pm

pegs wrote:You are mixing up not being capable of with simply not doing it.

SU's lack of shotblockers made it a priority for him to play help defense


I'm not mixing them up. The point is Wes hasn't demonstrated these abilities; therefore we are left having to project how he will translate to the NBA game. In watching him play, I don't see his game translating to SG at all.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:55 pm

BadKiki wrote:
Just because someone plays PF does not mean they are going to grab rebounds.

I don't get your stance on his defense, either. How is it fair to condemn someone before they're even given the opportunity to fail (or succeed)? There doesn't appear to be a cogent argument to suggest he won't be capable of guarding NBA small forwards.


First, please remember all of my criticism of Johnson is around taking him as the Nets' centerpiece of the draft. Now if the Nets were to trade Devin Harris for the #4 pick and select one of the other 3 players and then select Wes #4, I'd be quite content with his strengths and weaknesses.

The wing positions have a wide variety of player types. There are combo guards playing SG. There are combo forwards playing SF. There are power 3's like Melo and Granger playing SF. Given those various types, I see Wes being able to defend the SF position. However, moving down to SG for extended periods of time and having to guard smaller guys, I don't see that as putting him in a spot to succeed.

Additionally, as far as his defense, my concern is that people are painting him to be an above average defender from day 1 in the NBA. Wes has the physical attributes to develop into an above average defender at SF, but he still has a ton to learn about man defense and guarding men
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby BadKiki » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:02 pm

cpawfan wrote:
First, please remember all of my criticism of Johnson is around taking him as the Nets' centerpiece of the draft. Now if the Nets were to trade Devin Harris for the #4 pick and select one of the other 3 players and then select Wes #4, I'd be quite content with his strengths and weaknesses.

The wing positions have a wide variety of player types. There are combo guards playing SG. There are combo forwards playing SF. There are power 3's like Melo and Granger playing SF. Given those various types, I see Wes being able to defend the SF position. However, moving down to SG for extended periods of time and having to guard smaller guys, I don't see that as putting him in a spot to succeed.

Additionally, as far as his defense, my concern is that people are painting him to be an above average defender from day 1 in the NBA. Wes has the physical attributes to develop into an above average defender at SF, but he still has a ton to learn about man defense and guarding men


There. That's a fair, balanced assessment. Personally, I doubt many people expect him to be a good defender as a rookie because few players are. I do think most people think he can be solid by year two and so on and so forth.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:47 pm

I'm with cpawfan on this one.
Wesley Johnson is not a SG at all.
The only way he would be able to play SG is in a lineup with Lebron James.
Unless there is some kind of wink-wink deal going on behind closed doors with Lebron and one of the really nice power forwards both coming here it is insane to draft Johnson at 3rd overall.
I would go as far to say that if Thorn is this intent on taking a talented wing high in the draft and Turner doesn't slip, I would rather trade way down to somewhere around 8 to 10 and take Paul George and recieve a legitimate additional asset and possibly clear Yi from the books for more cap room.
Wesley Johnson looks like he will be a nice player, but no star, just a very good role player, which is nice and all, but you don't draft that sort of player with the 3rd overall pick when you have some of the elite prospects sitting on the board next to him and a couple other wings that will go in the next 5 to 10 picks that may very well become better players then Wes...
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:02 am

cpawfan wrote:
Who is talking about his handling the ball like a PG? He doesn't handle it as well as the average SG. Wes hasn't proven he can defend NBA SF's and suddenly you want him defending NBA SG's?

As for why not, it is similar as to why NBA reserve big men don't drive Chevy Cobalts


I'm mentioning a comparison to being a PG, because I do think his ability is good enough as a two-guard. He can drive towards the basket. We don't need him to be Vince Carter.

It's hard to prove you can't defend NBA SF's if you haven't played in the NBA.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:05 am

His handle borders on below average for a small forward, how is he going to play the 2?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:07 am

cpawfan wrote:There are many more differences between the two.


Then why allude to them instead of saying them?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby pegs » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:12 am

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:His handle borders on below average for a small forward, how is he going to play the 2?

His handle is just fine. It's not below average. He didn't turn over the ball a lot, either.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:13 am

cpawfan wrote:
Additionally, as far as his defense, my concern is that people are painting him to be an above average defender from day 1 in the NBA. Wes has the physical attributes to develop into an above average defender at SF, but he still has a ton to learn about man defense and guarding men


Why can't he guard SG's for a long period of time? You've scouted his stamina? Either he can stay in front of them or he can't.

He'll have to improve his man defense regardless of what position he plays simply by moving from the college to the NBA. I still don't see why his development can't be as a SG.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:16 am

GMJ wrote:
Then why allude to them instead of saying them?


Based upon previous conversations, I knew it was going to be a tangent that would only be an exercise in futility because the point would get lost as far too much time was spent dissecting word choice
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:18 am

GMJ wrote:
Why can't he guard SG's for a long period of time? You've scouted his stamina? Either he can stay in front of them or he can't.

He'll have to improve his man defense regardless of what position he plays simply by moving from the college to the NBA. I still don't see why his development can't be as a SG.


Wait, did you seriously just attempt to limit defense to a combination of stamina and staying in front of an offensive player? That doesn't even deserve a stefanski
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