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DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:22 am

cpawfan wrote:
Based upon previous conversations, I knew it was going to be a tangent that would only be an exercise in futility because the point would get lost as far too much time was spent dissecting word choice


Which I'll read as it's easier to just say a nice sounding phrase rather than actually explain it myself. ;)
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:23 am

cpawfan wrote:Wait, did you seriously just attempt to limit defense to a combination of stamina and staying in front of an offensive player? That doesn't even deserve a stefanski



Maybe I did, maybe I didn't: I'm asking you why he can guard SG's...just not for too long. What does that mean?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:23 am

pegs wrote:His handle is just fine. It's not below average. He didn't turn over the ball a lot, either.

I disagree. At least at SG. It would be like Richard Jefferson as a SG, at best...

I mean I guess his game can be compared in style loosely to Kevin Martin and Michael Redd, but I still don't see him succeeding or being ideal as a SG night in and night out except in very specific lineups.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:34 am

GMJ wrote:
Which I'll read as it's easier to just say a nice sounding phrase rather than actually explain it myself. ;)


You can read it that way, but you'll be wrong. This may come as a surprise to you, but I really don't like banging my head against the wall. There are few things worse than taking the time to explain things and then having to spend time discussing word choices because the other person gets hung up on a word.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby pegs » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:34 am

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:I disagree. At least at SG. It would be like Richard Jefferson as a SG, at best...

I mean I guess his game can be compared in style loosely to Kevin Martin and Michael Redd, but I still don't see him succeeding or being ideal as a SG night in and night out except in very specific lineups.

He's not a chucker. He's a very efficient shooter, who excels at getting shots within the offense. He can catch and shoot, face up and rise above a defender for a good shot, and drive to the basket. He prefers to shoot, though.

His handle is good enough to create enough space for his shot and drive by his man -is there anything else he really needs to play sg?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:37 am

GMJ wrote:

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't: I'm asking you why he can guard SG's...just not for too long. What does that mean?


Let's try this. Do you believe that when Yi is playing PF that other teams are able to exploit his defense?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:41 am

cpawfan wrote:
You can read it that way, but you'll be wrong. This may come as a surprise to you, but I really don't like banging my head against the wall. There are few things worse than taking the time to explain things and then having to spend time discussing word choices because the other person gets hung up on a word.


I was raised by lawyers. Yes, there are many jokes to be made :)

I'm just asking for you to elaborate though, and asking for clarifications on points you've made. They're your words. Luckily there's no time limit on a forum; you may take the time at your leisure.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:43 am

cpawfan wrote:
Let's try this. Do you believe that when Yi is playing PF that other teams are able to exploit his defense?


Yes, because Yi can't guard PFs at all.

So what did you mean by his ability to guard SG's, just not for too long?
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby pegs » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:48 am

cpawfan wrote:
Let's try this. Do you believe that when Yi is playing PF that other teams are able to exploit his defense?

Bad example. It doesn't matter what position he plays, if he's playing teams will be able to exploit his defense
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:50 am

GMJ wrote:
Yes, because Yi can't guard PFs at all.

So what did you mean by his ability to guard SG's, just not for too long?


It isn't true that Yi can't guard PF's at all. Yes, he is a below average defender, but he does make some stops and good defensive plays. However, the longer he is on the court, the more other teams are able to exploit him or force the Nets to alter their defense.

Kidd was able to switch onto a PF at times and do a decent job of holding his ground and making things not easy for the opponent. Yet there was no way you'd want him defending PF's for long because he would get exploited.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:29 am

So you meant that Wes Johnson will only be partly successful in defending SG's, and sometimes will get beat? If I'm not misunderstanding you, that sounds like an NBA starting SG. I don't know anyone who locks someone down 100% of the time.

(I don't get why the liability of having a PG guard a PF can't get exploited on some possessions than others, but that can be a later discussion)
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:42 am

pegs wrote:He's not a chucker. He's a very efficient shooter, who excels at getting shots within the offense. He can catch and shoot, face up and rise above a defender for a good shot, and drive to the basket. He prefers to shoot, though.

His handle is good enough to create enough space for his shot and drive by his man -is there anything else he really needs to play sg?

I don't want to use the 3rd pick on a guy that can possibly "play" SG, if I'm drafting a guy that high I want him to be able to excel at the position I plan on playing him at a majority of the time, with legitimate potential to become a star at said position.
Just sayin'...
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:11 am

GMJ wrote:So you meant that Wes Johnson will only be partly successful in defending SG's, and sometimes will get beat? If I'm not misunderstanding you, that sounds like an NBA starting SG. I don't know anyone who locks someone down 100% of the time.

(I don't get why the liability of having a PG guard a PF can't get exploited on some possessions than others, but that can be a later discussion)


replace partly with rarely and sometimes with most of the time
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:17 am

I think this thread has basically turned into a bunch of people arguing semantics.

Can Wes Johnson play shooting guard?
Sure.

Richard Jefferson, Devin Harris, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, Trevor Ariza, Caron Butler, etc. can play shooting guard as well.

Should Wesley Johnson play shooting guard?
No.

It's not his natural position, he has a relatively weak handle, he's not a good playmaker and just an alright passer and he will not be able to maximize his defensive potential at the 2.


I don't see much of what there is to argue in defense of the opposite.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Kid Chocolate » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:51 am

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:I think this thread has basically turned into a bunch of people arguing semantics.

Can Wes Johnson play shooting guard?
Sure.

Richard Jefferson, Devin Harris, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, Trevor Ariza, Caron Butler, etc. can play shooting guard as well.

Should Wesley Johnson play shooting guard?
No.

It's not his natural position, he has a relatively weak handle, he's not a good playmaker and just an alright passer and he will not be able to maximize his defensive potential at the 2.


I don't see much of what there is to argue in defense of the opposite.


I think it all became a much bigger deal because Calamity said Wes can play SG, and cpaw simply responded with "No he can't" without any reasoning.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:00 am

Kid Chocolate wrote:
I think it all became a much bigger deal because Calamity said Wes can play SG, and cpaw simply responded with "No he can't" without any reasoning.


It is has come up for discussion multiple times. Granted, not as many times as can Cousins play PF, but enough that the same reasons have been given multiple times throughout this forum.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Kid Chocolate » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:06 am

Well it seems like it would have behooved everyone if you would have said it again in this case, because I don't remember reading it anywhere else (granted I don't view every thread on the forum) and it seems like other people never saw it either with the way the argument went.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby GMJ » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:41 am

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:It's not his natural position


I'm not concerned about if he'd be a better SG than SF for particular NBA teams.

lol I'm not even going to dignify the argument of saying if a guy can reach a "maximum defensive potential." Blah blah blah, forum-speak. What does that mean really? Different ways of saying the same thing to make you look better; not buying it.

There's nothing overwhelming nor definitive to say he can't succeed at playing SG. Just because he knows zone defense doesn't mean he doesn't know how to play man defense. He's an excellent playmaker, since he was the star that lead Syracuse to unexpectedly be one of the better teams this past season. After reviewing the argument the criticism comes down to passing ability and ball handling, which has not been substantiated beyond stating this opinion and is otherwise weak as it pertains to a SG on a team that does not require these skills out of a third player in the backcourt (the first two being Devin and Terrence Williams).

If a statement is worth saying in a thread, it's worth giving an explanation.
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby cpawfan » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:00 am

GMJ wrote:If a statement is worth saying in a thread, it's worth giving an explanation.


1+1=2 doesn't need an explanation
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Re: DX: Nets will take Wesley Johnson

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:14 am

GMJ wrote:
I'm not concerned about if he'd be a better SG than SF for particular NBA teams.

lol I'm not even going to dignify the argument of saying if a guy can reach a "maximum defensive potential." Blah blah blah, forum-speak. What does that mean really? Different ways of saying the same thing to make you look better; not buying it.

There's nothing overwhelming nor definitive to say he can't succeed at playing SG. Just because he knows zone defense doesn't mean he doesn't know how to play man defense. He's an excellent playmaker, since he was the star that lead Syracuse to unexpectedly be one of the better teams this past season. After reviewing the argument the criticism comes down to passing ability and ball handling, which has not been substantiated beyond stating this opinion and is otherwise weak as it pertains to a SG on a team that does not require these skills out of a third player in the backcourt (the first two being Devin and Terrence Williams).

If a statement is worth saying in a thread, it's worth giving an explanation.

Dude I don't even know what you're talking about. Forum speak?
You love to argue for the sake of it in general and time and time again I find myself being grilled third degree for my opinions.

This is that same schtick you pulled with me with Cole Aldrich when you called me out for calling him unathletic and said repeatedly that he was basically an exceptional athlete.

So now Wesley Johnson is an, "excellent playmaker"?! And your reasoning is, "he was the star that lead Syracuse to unexpectedly be one of the better teams this past season"?!!!
I guess Kevin Durant and Dwight Howard were excellent playmakers as well then?

Lol.

Such a joke dude.

Saying Wes Johnson has a weak handle and isn't a good playmaker is not opinion, it's fact, it's that simple, no matter what type of "forum talk" spin you want to put on it.

I don't see what's so hard to accept.

I mean if I said James Anderson has a relatively weak handle or that Cousins can't jump high, or that Derrick Favors has little post game, or that Al Farouq Aminu had a suspect jumper, these statements would not be considered opinion, they would be considered fact, as are the criticisms of Wes Johnson.

Get it now?
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