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Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:42 am

mb4th wrote:Meh. Didnt you and Ghoti hate Brook Lopez? Ill take Brook over Granger or 2006 Stromile Swift


Swift???? I've never, ever been in favor of the Nets acquiring Stromile Swift

As far as Lopez, it is about context. There was one kid that kept saying Brook should be the #1 draft pick and ghoti and I pointed out how inefficiently Brook scored in college.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Ast » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:19 am

blkswizz wrote:As dissapointed as we fans may be, our frustration should be directed to one person and one person alone Bruce Ratner.
I can't agree with you. Ratner lost 90% of his net worth since the economy tanked. He, and his parent company are in strains. If it was you or me, we would also choose self preservation over bankruptcy. He's doing only what he must. Yeah, it sucks being a Nets fan, but it is not his fault. Thousands of companies, including over a 100 big banks actually closed. You're talking about a basketball team.
Before this, we had a top 10 payroll.

cpawfan wrote: Look at the level of incompetence of the GM's that passed over him after the top 4 picks. Portland's old GM passed on Deron and CP3 to trade down. Raptors (Babcock) need I say more? Zeke, the Bobcats hoping for UNC fans to fill the arena, the Clippers, Kevin McHale. Seriously, that was a horrible group of GM's

I'm not saying that other GMs are geniuses, but for one, judging Thorn for passing on Danny Granger is just silly. Like I said, mid-first round picks are more about luck than skill. Can you name one GM who consistently got those right?
BTW - Zeke's draft record isn't too bad.

As some astute person pointed out over and over that summer, McInnis created a lot of trouble late in the season and had completely pissed off LeBron. He was horrible in Portland and was selfish in Cleveland. He was not at all what the Nets needed.
Pissing off Lebron was extremely easy back then. Lebron used to shake his head every time his teammate made a single booboo.
Also, there's a big difference of playing with Lebron vs. playing with Kidd. Kidd has generally helped people stay on the right track. Sure - kudos to you for predicting that McInnis will self destruct. It still could have went the other way too.

He was putrid in Portland. He was DOA in New Jersey. A D league scrub could have contributed more than Magloire and that was obvious before the season started. The MLE could have been used on a shooter.
Obvious to who? I remember that season there were a lot of threads about whether or not.
If it's so obvious, why did Riley sign him afterwards? Rod knew what he was getting into - a player past his prime who is a risk. That was exactly why he got a ONE year deal worth 4m.

This has nothing to do with his knees. It was very clear from his play that season in Sacramento that he wasn't a difference maker. Heck, he was super motivated to prove the Nets were fools for passing on him and he still played like a below average PF for the Kings. Smart people knew in advance that SAR wasn't the missing the piece.
No one is saying he's an All-NBA player. But I'd definitely take a veteran big man who shoots a good %, can rebound and is a decent defender, especially since he'd automatically become our best big. I'd take him a heartbeat over Jackson and Murray.

He failed to trade Vince when his value was at the peak.
Ah this old debate. After we traded Kidd, is it safe to say that we knew Carter wont be on the team for much longer? This is a fair assumption, correct? If it is so, Rodd must have tried to trade Carter immediately or at the same time he was trading Kidd. The reason he didn't points to lack of decent offers. Him trading Carter a year later is a clear sign that: 1) That was the best offer he's received in a year, or 2) average offers he was getting for Carter were getting lower and lower. Thus he traded him away before he was forced to add our young talent to get rid of him.
I personally thought that a pure salary dump was the best he could have done in trading Carter. I mean, that's what Toronto did, and he was 3 years younger then.

He thought he could build a championship team around 3 perimeter players that didn't fit together and he never addressed the weaknesses in the roster.
Everybody knew that 3 perimeter players is not a good combo. But do you expect there was a reasonable opportunity to change that? If we traded Carter or RJ for a big man, we would have received an average starter PF in exchange, nothing more. People dont trade high caliber big men for perimeter players.

Also, he tried to address the issue many times - from Mutombo to Zo, to Shareef and Magloire. Scott didn't like Mutombo, Zo acted like a little girl and Shareef didn't pass the physical. Magloire was discussed. Are these his signing, ideas and mistakes? Sure. Did he have opportunity to get someone better? I seriously doubt it.

He mismanaged Krstic coming back to the NBA.
You're blaming Thorn for Krstic?

He had Diop when he was considered a commodity.
Dude, Mavs offered him 35m and wouldn't agree to a S&T - what do you expect Thorn to do? His only choice was to shrug and say "wow, you guys are complete fools, but there's nothing I can do".

He failed to leave roster spots open to allow for maneuverability
If there was someone of quality available, trust me, he would have no problems cutting Padgetts, LJ3s, Hassans or Murrays.

Other teams found useful players in the D League or signed undrafted free agents that panned out. For a team on a budget, those are two huge failings. The players Rod took a chance on all sucked. That isn't luck.
You're completely disregarding players that have succeeded with us - Mikki Moore, Athony Johnson, Eddie House, Boki come to mind.

Also, there are only 2 GMs who have gotten quality players in those positions - Morey and Buford, and even those guys made mistakes.

I can understand and agree with some of your beliefs - as in, he signed a ton of guys who sucked, failed to draft a decent player, or didn't trade RJ/Carter in time. But when I take a step back and ask "what else could he have done?" There really isn't that much choice. He tried to draft NBA-ready players who can help the team immediately, he signed best FAs he could and tried out a ton of unproven/undrafted players in hopes of finding a gem.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby winitortank » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:01 pm

How is this a defense of Thorn? You just put another huge nail in his coffin with that.


To get the facts straight. We never did get to see Swift with Kidd. If he made Sean Williams look good he would've made Stroshow the second coming of Kmart.

It was a debate who the Nets would pick KMart or Stromile. Kenyon was the better choice but when they didn't bring him back Stro would've been a good fit.
He didn't need plays called for him and would be an easy assist for Kidd and later Vince.
And he would have came cheap. That was the move the front office needed to make.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Netted » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:09 pm

winitortank wrote:Kenyon was the better choice but when they didn't bring him back Stro would've been a good fit.

OMG, I did not just read that. Stromile was horrible. He is in China now and Kenyon is main component on a Championship contender.

Was that sarcasm?
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby winitortank » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:57 pm

Thorn got Swift in hopes of keeping Kidd he should've done it sooner. He and Krstic would've been a good tandem. The Nets had a gaping hole at power forward when K left. Stro was better than Lammond Murray, Marc Jackson, Jamal Magloire... Stro would get easy baskets off his athleticism with Kidd.
“A long time ago, my dad said, ‘Sports teaches you how to come back from disasters and failures and all that type of stuff,’ ” Kiki Vandeweghe imparted. “I want to call him now and say, ‘I’ve had enough lessons now.’ -Kiki Vandeweghe
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:07 pm

winitortank wrote:Thorn got Swift in hopes of keeping Kidd he should've done it sooner. He and Krstic would've been a good tandem. The Nets had a gaping hole at power forward when K left. Stro was better than Lammond Murray, Marc Jackson, Jamal Magloire... Stro would get easy baskets off his athleticism with Kidd.


Stromile Swift never should have been a Net. He sucks. He is not better than any of the players you mentioned. He is as equally putrid as they are.

The only benefit to Stromile Swift is that he makes fans appreciate Yi and Josh Boone
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby winitortank » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Of course not they got to play with JKidd. Just like Kidd made Kmart a star he coul've helped Stromile be a decent bench player.
“A long time ago, my dad said, ‘Sports teaches you how to come back from disasters and failures and all that type of stuff,’ ” Kiki Vandeweghe imparted. “I want to call him now and say, ‘I’ve had enough lessons now.’ -Kiki Vandeweghe
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:30 pm

winitortank wrote:Of course not they got to play with JKidd. Just like Kidd made Kmart a star he coul've helped Stromile be a decent bench player.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't realize Kidd was playing for the Nuggets this past month

No one could have made Swift a decent bench player
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby winitortank » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:18 pm

Maybe so he still would've been worth a try.
“A long time ago, my dad said, ‘Sports teaches you how to come back from disasters and failures and all that type of stuff,’ ” Kiki Vandeweghe imparted. “I want to call him now and say, ‘I’ve had enough lessons now.’ -Kiki Vandeweghe
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby kk30 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:27 pm

Thorn is a decent GM, the Kidd for Marbury trade was considered a wash at the time. I wouldnt say that trade was gift wrapped. It clearly worked out for us though. We had a great run this last decade, the only bad years have been the last 3 years but we had 6 good years. Overall hes not great with the draft, he should take more chances on younger players rather than always trying to get Nba ready players.
But for the most part we have had mid range picks and its hard picking in those spots unless you are the Spurs. It seems like he sold on Carter and RJ and Kidd at the right time. He didnt get a ton back but Carter is doing horrible now. Look at the trades he was offered for Carter, he basically got the best one.
Hes also not great at signing bench players but I think that just has to do with many free agents not wanting to come to the swamp in NJ. Its true no big FA really wants to come to NJ especially when Ratner took over so Thorn did a great job of getting Carter in a trade. That trade was highway robbery, not everyone can pull off a trade like that.

I hate that people say things were gift wrapped. Thats not true, if making trades were easy everybody would do it and it would happen all the time. Getting rip offs are not easy, they take skill and he got us Kidd and Carter and dont forget RJ and Collins were from trades too.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby mb4th » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:06 am

cpawfan wrote:Meh. Didnt you and Ghoti hate Brook Lopez? Ill take Brook over Granger or 2006 Stromile Swift

Swift???? I've never, ever been in favor of the Nets acquiring Stromile Swift

As far as Lopez, it is about context. There was one kid that kept saying Brook should be the #1 draft pick and ghoti and I pointed out how inefficiently Brook scored in college.


What Swift are you advocating Thorn sign in your BBB link? Robert, Taylor?
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:37 am

mb4th wrote:What Swift are you advocating Thorn sign in your BBB link? Robert, Taylor?


You missed the sarcasm. I said I'd rather the Nets sign Stromile than McInnis as a way of putting in context how much I disliked the signing of McInnis. I always said any acquisition of Stromile would be useless and that he sucked.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby mb4th » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:50 am

cpawfan wrote:What Swift are you advocating Thorn sign in your BBB link? Robert, Taylor?


You missed the sarcasm. I said I'd rather the Nets sign Stromile than McInnis as a way of putting in context how much I disliked the signing of McInnis. I always said any acquisition of Stromile would be useless and that he sucked.[/quote]

Sarcasm wears off after 3 years. You loving Swift is now on the record
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby killa kadafi191 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:32 am

kk30 wrote:Thorn is a decent GM, the Kidd for Marbury trade was considered a wash at the time. I wouldnt say that trade was gift wrapped. It clearly worked out for us though. We had a great run this last decade, the only bad years have been the last 3 years but we had 6 good years. Overall hes not great with the draft, he should take more chances on younger players rather than always trying to get Nba ready players.
But for the most part we have had mid range picks and its hard picking in those spots unless you are the Spurs. It seems like he sold on Carter and RJ and Kidd at the right time. He didnt get a ton back but Carter is doing horrible now. Look at the trades he was offered for Carter, he basically got the best one.
Hes also not great at signing bench players but I think that just has to do with many free agents not wanting to come to the swamp in NJ. Its true no big FA really wants to come to NJ especially when Ratner took over so Thorn did a great job of getting Carter in a trade. That trade was highway robbery, not everyone can pull off a trade like that.

I hate that people say things were gift wrapped. Thats not true, if making trades were easy everybody would do it and it would happen all the time. Getting rip offs are not easy, they take skill and he got us Kidd and Carter and dont forget RJ and Collins were from trades too.



were we ever offer George hill for Carter???
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:19 pm

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how transforming a championship contender into the WORST GO NETS!!! TEAM EVER can be considered doing a good job.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Ast » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:34 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to explain how transforming a championship contender into the WORST GO NETS!!! TEAM EVER can be considered doing a good job.

He had to trade away his 3 aging star players and was not allowed to take on additional salary.

Also, our team was decimated by injuries in the beginning of the season, then Frank got fired and Kiki took over, quickly transforming us from an extremely short handed team who competed and was top 10 in defense to a team with internal issues and #27 defense.

I'm pretty sure this is a at least a 20-25 win team under Frank.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:37 pm

Ast wrote:He had to trade away his 3 aging star players and was not allowed to take on additional salary.

Also, our team was decimated by injuries in the beginning of the season, then Frank got fired and Kiki took over, quickly transforming us from an extremely short handed team who competed and was top 10 in defense to a team with internal issues and #27 defense.

I'm pretty sure this is a at least a 20-25 win team under Frank.


No. This team is playing up to its talent level.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby ly_yng » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:44 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to explain how transforming a championship contender into the WORST GO NETS!!! TEAM EVER can be considered doing a good job.


To use a political/military concept here, I think you're confusing tactics with strategy. Halfway through Thorn's tenure, the mission changed. The priorities became cutting costs, not producing the best team dollar-for-dollar. From a cost-cutting perspective, I don't know how you can consider this season a failure. Thorn and Kiki were given a job, and they pretty much did exactly what they were told to do - get the team to a fresh start, cap wise, with the remaining salary being committed to cost-effective assets.

These guys may have produced the worst team in NBA history, but they weren't asked not to - they were asked to dramatically cut salary so the team could be sold. They've quite clearly done their jobs effectively.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:56 pm

ly_yng wrote:To use a political/military concept here, I think you're confusing tactics with strategy. Halfway through Thorn's tenure, the mission changed. The priorities became cutting costs, not producing the best team dollar-for-dollar. From a cost-cutting perspective, I don't know how you can consider this season a failure. Thorn and Kiki were given a job, and they pretty much did exactly what they were told to do - get the team to a fresh start, cap wise, with the remaining salary being committed to cost-effective assets.

These guys may have produced the worst team in NBA history, but they weren't asked not to - they were asked to dramatically cut salary so the team could be sold. They've quite clearly done their jobs effectively.


:lol:
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Ast » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:01 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:No. This team is playing up to its talent level.
I agree with ly_ing, but still disagree with you though. This is not a 4 win team. We had several games where a couple of guys played great ball, and we still lost. If we played better, or rather any, defense, those 5 point losses would have been wins.
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