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Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:14 pm

Ast wrote:I agree with ly_ing, but still disagree with you though. This is not a 4 win team. We had several games where a couple of guys played great ball, and we still lost. If we played better, or rather any, defense, those 5 point losses would have been wins.


It is a 4 win team.

4-44. The team has 4 wins. How is it not a 4 win team?

If we played better or if we played defense? Huh?

If pigs had wings, they could fly. If the Nets had LeBron, they'd be good. If Yi Jianlian..k forget about that one.

The fact is this team doesn't play better and doesn't play defense because it's not capable. Sure, some games have been close, but bad teams lose close games, and this is the worst team ever.

If a couple guys play great ball and still lose it speaks to their talent level more than anything.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GMJ » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:39 pm

ly_yng wrote:
To use a political/military concept here, I think you're confusing tactics with strategy. Halfway through Thorn's tenure, the mission changed. The priorities became cutting costs, not producing the best team dollar-for-dollar. From a cost-cutting perspective, I don't know how you can consider this season a failure. Thorn and Kiki were given a job, and they pretty much did exactly what they were told to do - get the team to a fresh start, cap wise, with the remaining salary being committed to cost-effective assets.

These guys may have produced the worst team in NBA history, but they weren't asked not to - they were asked to dramatically cut salary so the team could be sold. They've quite clearly done their jobs effectively.


I agree. I'm not ready to become a Rod Thorn apologist (Kiki can go rot), but if one isn't going take into consideration his boss' orders, they're shortsighted. If they do and then ignore it, they're being reckless. I don't think he was ever asked to get good talent, but rather was asked to get cheap talent.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby MrDollarBills » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:44 pm

Ast wrote:I agree with ly_ing, but still disagree with you though. This is not a 4 win team. We had several games where a couple of guys played great ball, and we still lost. If we played better, or rather any, defense, those 5 point losses would have been wins.



yeah, i agree with this.
13-69, easily.



-Mr. Dollar Bills prediction back in June, as seen in the "What do you think the nets record will be" Thread. 10 wins and you can call me Nostradamous. I also read palms and predict lottery numbers.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:29 pm

GMJigga wrote:I agree. I'm not ready to become a Rod Thorn apologist (Kiki can go rot), but if one isn't going take into consideration his boss' orders, they're shortsighted. If they do and then ignore it, they're being reckless. I don't think he was ever asked to get good talent, but rather was asked to get cheap talent.


That's nice, but he hasn't gotten any talent (aside from Lopez). As has been pointed out numerous times, he has had plenty of opportunity to get good, cheap talent through the draft and through free agency by taking a chance on some young players instead of washed up vets. He blew it.

These guys may have produced the worst team in NBA history, but they weren't asked not to


Huh? He doesn't have to be asked not to create the worst team in history. That's absurd. Being the worst team in history is not a necessary aspect of cost-cutting nor is it a necessary aspect of rebuilding. Part of his job is still to focus on basketball.

I can see how being financially constrained can prevent a team from competing, but that is a poor excuse for being the worst team ever.

Halfway through Thorn's tenure, the mission changed. The priorities became cutting costs, not producing the best team dollar-for-dollar.


Rod Thorn was a failure before "the mission changed".
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GMJ » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:41 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:
That's nice, but he hasn't gotten any talent (aside from Lopez). As has been pointed out numerous times, he has had plenty of opportunity to get good, cheap talent through the draft and through free agency by taking a chance on some young players instead of washed up vets. He blew it.


Dooling, Hayes? When you're only told to spend Lamond Murray money, you're going to get Lamond Murray talent.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Eduardo's Empanada » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:45 pm

How was Thorn supposed to put a competitive team on the floor when he wasn't even allowed to make one year signings like Hakim Warrick?!
I just don't get it. You have Grandkenyon saying this is a 4 win team and has no talent, yet there was no way to get more talent and Thorn was asked to scrap massive salary. Devin has played like junk and Opie was fired for a horrid excuse of a coach in Kiki. Even Del has walked because he was fed up.
You ask for him to take risks on players, but players he takes risks on have horrible attitude problems like CDR and Mr. T.
I don't see a lot that there is to blame on Thorn for this season. He has no tradeable assets if the plan is to take on no 2010 salary, I mean what do you want him to get Ray Allen for Bobby Simmons and Battie? :?
I love how people call for someone's hed, but they have no plan of their own to turn things around.

You tell me, specific examples of how you would have helped this team compete.
Thought so.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:01 pm

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:I love how people call for someone's hed, but they have no plan of their own to turn things around.


[sexism on]
It is like being out at the bar with your buddies. Are you going to let your buddy that has had way too much to drink go home with the 400 pound woman with the eye patch that is rubbing his leg just because his goggles are so bad he thinks she looks like Jac of All Nets? Who cares if you don't have an another female for him? You still have to honor the buddy code and stop him
[sexism off]

I have four kids and know how to recognize and what to do with a poopy diaper. The Nets front office needs a brand new diaper (please no depends jokes about Rod's age) because the current one is full of GO NETS.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:21 pm

Jigga, Dooling and Hayes were the type of players the Nets needed 7 years ago.

cpawfan wrote:
[sexism on]
It is like being out at the bar with your buddies. Are you going to let your buddy that has had way too much to drink go home with the 400 pound woman with the eye patch that is rubbing his leg just because his goggles are so bad he thinks she looks like Jac of All Nets? Who cares if you don't have an another female for him? You still have to honor the buddy code and stop him
[sexism off]
.

Exactly!

Eduardo's Empanada wrote:I love how people call for someone's hed, but they have no plan of their own to turn things around.


Is it my job to turn things around? Am I the president or GM? I don't need to have my own plan to recognize when someone is doing a bad job.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby gigantes » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:44 pm

cpawfan wrote:I've read and posted on usenet from VAX terminals. BBS is nothing

that doesn't necessarily predate the era of BBS's. AFAIK one can still post to usenet from existing VAX terminals today.


cpawfan wrote:Readability???? I think the poll asking people to predict if Jeff McInnis would be on the Nets playoff roster prior to the start of his first season is very readable. http://www.basketballforum.com/new-jers ... oster.html

This forum matters plenty. I don't see nor feel the need to be verbose for the sake of formality.

the more evidence and reasoning you can tie into your opinions, the more i have a chance to learn something. otherwise it's basically a 'you're with me or against me' kind of thing, the fuel for a lot of webforum back-and-forth.

example: you said recently that kmart was a better player now than he was with the nets. IMO that's an intriguing, provocative statement, but as it stands, it's nothing more than an opinion. so i'd be interested in hearing you break it down, as in, pull out some numbers, weigh the plusses and minuses, apply some reason. if you wind up putting enough work into it... then maybe you have something to add to the front page, no? an interesting editorial, if you will...

the thing that i like very much about the posts by NI, dumpy, ly ying, gm-jigga, netted, and several other regular and occasional posters, is that there's a lot of information and reasoning typically thrown in there. again, chance to learn something and see how others are coming to their conclusions.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Lurk182 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:48 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:
It is a 4 win team.

4-44. The team has 4 wins. How is it not a 4 win team?

If we played better or if we played defense? Huh?



I keep trying to figure out who was on the team last year that made so much better. I guess VC was worth 25 wins? Or was it Ryan Anderson? Smokey? I don't think so.

Look, they mailed it in this year. They started with an unbelievable rash of injuries, then got rid of the coach and with him all semblance of order. This was a sucky team going into the year (maybe a 25 win team?), but the whole organization has mailed it in once the season got started.

As regards Thorn, I have a middling stance. I think they should ask him to step down, and boot Kiki to the curb. But that doesn't mean denigrating his whole tenure with us. He built the team from early this decade, practically from scratch. Yes, he got lucky along the way, but it was still a stupendous achievement. He made some head-scratchingly bad moves when we were trying to get over the hump, but getting over the hump is proverbially difficult. He tried to reconstruct a winner out of the big 4 (at one point I recall that term being bandied about) but 3 of the 4 got hurt, and none of them came back to what they were, and it was over. For a brief second it made sense, and then it didn't. The bad record with the mid-level and mid-round guys is certainly a part of the story, although I think focussing too much on any one of them is unwise. It's several years of nothing, while the stars came plummeting to earth. I'm probably the only one left that thinks they did alright getting Yi, Devin (and a pick), and Lee for those burnt out stars, but it doesn't matter. The run is done, and it's time to bring somebody new in who can take this team in a new direction. Thanks Rod, and good luck in your future endeavors.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby gigantes » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:54 pm

Ast wrote:I can't agree with you. Ratner lost 90% of his net worth since the economy tanked. He, and his parent company are in strains. If it was you or me, we would also choose self preservation over bankruptcy. He's doing only what he must. Yeah, it sucks being a Nets fan, but it is not his fault. Thousands of companies, including over a 100 big banks actually closed. You're talking about a basketball team.
Before this, we had a top 10 payroll.

great post and breakdowns... +1 rep.

IMO the situation is so much more complicated than ratner being a gonets-gonets. still amazes me how so few fans seem to take into acct that jersey has been one of the most undesirable destinations for ages, not to mention a dead arena. that stuff has so much impact on the owner, the GM, FA signings, home court advantage and so forth... like we're usually stuck trying to hit drives out of the rough.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:57 pm

gigantes wrote:that doesn't necessarily predate the era of BBS's. AFAIK one can still post to usenet from existing VAX terminals today.


I remember when gopher was cool. :D Yes BBS's have been around a long time, but I am older than you.


the more evidence and reasoning you can tie into your opinions, the more i have a chance to learn something. otherwise it's basically a 'you're with me or against me' kind of thing, the fuel for a lot of webforum back-and-forth.

example: you said recently that kmart was a better player now than he was with the nets. IMO that's an intriguing, provocative statement, but as it stands, it's nothing more than an opinion. so i'd be interested in hearing you break it down, as in, pull out some numbers, weigh the plusses and minuses, apply some reason. if you wind up putting enough work into it... then maybe you have something to add to the front page, no? an interesting editorial, if you will...

the thing that i like very much about the posts by NI, dumpy, ly ying, gm-jigga, netted and several others, is that there's a lot of information and reasoning typically thrown in there. again, chance to learn something and see how others are coming to their conclusions.


I'm a bullet points kind of guy (no Arenas jokes please) and would rather present things and then discuss them back and forth. Verbosity drives me nuts and I generally believe I could have used less words to make my point than what I posted.

To your example, it isn't about numbers, but watching him play. His jumper is better than it has ever been as there is actually some arc on it now (see the Spurs game from this past weekend). His footwork in the post makes him look at times like an actual NBA big man (he had a couple of moves last night against the Suns that nearly rendered Mark Jackson speechless). He is the one that talks (more like barks out instructions) on Denver's defense. Karl has talked repeatedly to the media about his role as QB of the defense and how when the team plays their spurts of good defense it is because of what Kenyon does. In short, he is finally healthy, has matured and is a far more complete player than when he was an All Star with the Nets.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Ast » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:58 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:It is a 4 win team.

4-44. The team has 4 wins. How is it not a 4 win team?

If we played better or if we played defense? Huh?

If pigs had wings, they could fly. If the Nets had LeBron, they'd be good. If Yi Jianlian..k forget about that one.

If you didn't read what I said, why bother responding? It's not a question of IF we played better defense. We DID play much better defense under Frank. Top 10 defense, actually. Our personnel has NOT changed except for Humphries and Alston. That does not warrant a 6% slide in opponent's FG%.

The fact is this team doesn't play better and doesn't play defense because it's not capable. Sure, some games have been close, but bad teams lose close games, and this is the worst team ever.
Wrong. This exact team played much better defense under Lawrence Frank.

Is it my job to turn things around? Am I the president or GM? I don't need to have my own plan to recognize when someone is doing a bad job.

You should also be able to recognize the constraints placed on the GM.

Say I worked at Joe's Computer shop and I needed a network administrator. So I post a job offering 80K per year. Then comes Microsoft and says they'll pay 100K for same exact job. Then comes Intel and says they'll pay 78K for same exact job.
In this analogy, the Knicks, Mavs or Lakers are Microsoft- teams for who will overpay for guys they like, and Boston or SA are Intel - solids teams where everyone wants to play and are willing to take paycuts to do so.
Nets neither had the money nor the reputation to get great FAs. We had to settle for leftovers and hope we get lucky.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:03 pm

Lurk182 wrote:I keep trying to figure out who was on the team last year that made so much better. I guess VC was worth 25 wins? Or was it Ryan Anderson? Smokey? I don't think so.

Look, they mailed it in this year. They started with an unbelievable rash of injuries, then got rid of the coach and with him all semblance of order. This was a sucky team going into the year (maybe a 25 win team?), but the whole organization has mailed it in once the season got started.

As regards Thorn, I have a middling stance. I think they should ask him to step down, and boot Kiki to the curb. But that doesn't mean denigrating his whole tenure with us. He built the team from early this decade, practically from scratch. Yes, he got lucky along the way, but it was still a stupendous achievement. He made some head-scratchingly bad moves when we were trying to get over the hump, but getting over the hump is proverbially difficult. He tried to reconstruct a winner out of the big 4 (at one point I recall that term being bandied about) but 3 of the 4 got hurt, and none of them came back to what they were, and it was over. For a brief second it made sense, and then it didn't. The bad record with the mid-level and mid-round guys is certainly a part of the story, although I think focussing too much on any one of them is unwise. It's several years of nothing, while the stars came plummeting to earth. I'm probably the only one left that thinks they did alright getting Yi, Devin (and a pick), and Lee for those burnt out stars, but it doesn't matter. The run is done, and it's time to bring somebody new in who can take this team in a new direction. Thanks Rod, and good luck in your future endeavors.


I think the second part of your post is fair enough.

I disagree with part 1.

VC was worth 25 wins! I don't think the Nets won a single game in Vince's entire tenure here when he didn't play. Vince was the play-maker and the go to guy. Replacing him with Courtney Lee doesn't do much. I said many times throughout last season that there wasn't a single team in the NBA the Nets could beat without Vince. Now we're seeing it.

Vince may really be struggling playing through a shoulder injury right now, but to the Nets, Vince was that important last season.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby GrandKenyon6 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:17 pm

Ast wrote:You should also be able to recognize the constraints placed on the GM.

Say I worked at Joe's Computer shop and I needed a network administrator. So I post a job offering 80K per year. Then comes Microsoft and says they'll pay 100K for same exact job. Then comes Intel and says they'll pay 78K for same exact job.
In this analogy, the Knicks, Mavs or Lakers are Microsoft- teams for who will overpay for guys they like, and Boston or SA are Intel - solids teams where everyone wants to play and are willing to take paycuts to do so.
Nets neither had the money nor the reputation to get great FAs. We had to settle for leftovers and hope we get lucky.


I recognize the constraints fully. It's an excuse. A poor one.

No one said anything about getting great free agents. No one expects them to, but the Nets didn't have to settle for leftovers. The Nets could have gotten better by drafting players who didn't suck and by finding the undrafted players, players from the D-League, players from overseas, etc, etc who evolved into legitimate NBA rotation players. These guys don't cost anything.

Thorn could have picked some of these guys up like the GOOD PRESIDENTS AND GM'S DO EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

There is absolutely no excuse for putting together a team that is this poorly constructed. None.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby gigantes » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:36 pm

cpawfan wrote:I remember when gopher was cool. :D Yes BBS's have been around a long time, but I am older than you.

how do you know you're older than me? :)


I'm a bullet points kind of guy (no Arenas jokes please) and would rather present things and then discuss them back and forth. Verbosity drives me nuts and I generally believe I could have used less words to make my point than what I posted.

yea, understood. we all have our own styles. i almost always shoot for efficiency, myself. any effective writer has to learn how to regularly murder his children (his words) in order to improve his work. (philosophical aside alert)


To your example, it isn't about numbers, but watching him play. His jumper is better than it has ever been as there is actually some arc on it now (see the Spurs game from this past weekend). His footwork in the post makes him look at times like an actual NBA big man (he had a couple of moves last night against the Suns that nearly rendered Mark Jackson speechless). He is the one that talks (more like barks out instructions) on Denver's defense. Karl has talked repeatedly to the media about his role as QB of the defense and how when the team plays their spurts of good defense it is because of what Kenyon does. In short, he is finally healthy, has matured and is a far more complete player than when he was an All Star with the Nets.

thanks for the breakdown... i look forward to my next chance to see him. i definitely like the idea of players growing up and addressing problems in their technique and approach to the game. seems like the more star-power one has, the harder this is.

still kicking myself for not buying LP this year, but i was trying to save money for a major relocation that was supposed to happen january 1st. now that it's been delayed, i still don't see the NBA pro-rating LP, either. :/ doesn't help being out of the YES area and the national carriers showing very few games up until very recently.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby Ast » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:59 pm

GrandKenyon6 wrote:I recognize the constraints fully. It's an excuse. A poor one.

No one said anything about getting great free agents. No one expects them to, but the Nets didn't have to settle for leftovers. The Nets could have gotten better by drafting players who didn't suck and by finding the undrafted players, players from the D-League, players from overseas, etc, etc who evolved into legitimate NBA rotation players. These guys don't cost anything.

I dare you to name 4 (four) GMs who have consistently shown an ability to find good rotational players from:
1) late 1st round
2) undrafted
3) d-league
4) overseas
5) low price FAs

Thorn could have picked some of these guys up like the GOOD PRESIDENTS AND GM'S DO EVERY SINGLE YEAR.
Haha. That's why so many do this all the time right?
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby cpawfan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 pm

Ast wrote:I dare you to name 4 (four) GMs who have consistently shown an ability to find good rotational players from:
1) late 1st round
2) undrafted
3) d-league
4) overseas
5) low price FAs


Spurs and Rockets shouldn't need an explination

current Nuggets staff - Kleiza was late first, they traded 2 second rounders to save JR Smith from the scrap heap, Dahtnay Jones last season, Anthony Carter, Birdman, the pick they traded for Ty Lawson was originally a late first that became a Bobcats protected first rounder

Golden State - while their lottery selections and big free agents haven't been great, they did draft Monta in the second round and found Morrow and Azubuike
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby pegs » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:56 pm

cpawfan wrote:
Spurs and Rockets shouldn't need an explination

current Nuggets staff - Kleiza was late first, they traded 2 second rounders to save JR Smith from the scrap heap, Dahtnay Jones last season, Anthony Carter, Birdman, the pick they traded for Ty Lawson was originally a late first that became a Bobcats protected first rounder

Golden State - while their lottery selections and big free agents haven't been great, they did draft Monta in the second round and found Morrow and Azubuike

Plus, they pretty much stole Afflalo for bits and pieces. Joey Graham wasn't that bad of a signing, either.

Might as well throw in Toronto - their base hasn't been good enough to build around, but finding guys like Anthony Parker, Jose Calderon, Jamario Moon is notable.

Phoenix, too, with their finds of Admunson, Dragic, Hunter (he's been crap anywhere else, he was serviceable with them), Hill.

Portland has been VERY good at finding those types, too - Steve Blake, Jarret Jack, Rudy Fernandez, Nicholas Batum, Howard.

I don't think Throntron has done this once. I can't recall it. Maybe just below average players from the DLeague.
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Re: Without a new Front Office, the Nets will continue to suck

Postby mb4th » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:41 pm

PHX found Grant Hill? He wasnt hiding very well
"First I got to get big like Dwight Howard, Im gonna do that"



"We also have Anthony Morrow he’s one of the best for three-point throws. It’s very important for our team. "
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